Friday, April 4, 2008

Love for the rapier

This post is in response to Deurack’s post in which he provides a convincing argument on why the kukri should be the weapon of choice for melees--- primarily because he believes that “Mysteria” is a more powerful weapon than the “Rapier of the High”. Deurack makes some excellent points, but I’d like to expand, clarify and give a little “love” back to the rapier.

First, I’d like to compare the two boss drops, “Mysteria” and “Rapier of the High”. Click on the image below for the side-by-side comparison of each drop.
As you can see, both weapons have the same critical threat range and critical multiplier and keen property. The only discernible difference is in the base damage and damage bonuses. Based on my admittedly poor arithmetic skills, I calculate that (not including Strength bonus) Mysteria will do 11 – 44 hp damage on a normal hit, and 22 – 88 on a critical hit. The “High” will do 10 – 42 hp damage on a normal strike, and 20 – 84 on a critical. So, Deurack is correct in that the tiny kukri is more of a damage dealer than the rapier. Which begs the question, why would anyone ever choose a rapier at all? The answer for me is simple: in order to wield a kukri, you have to use an additional feat (exotic weapon proficiency). The rapier, being a “martial” weapon, is typically usable by all melee classes and elves get rapier proficiency for free. “Well, it’s just one feat you say”… yes, that’s true, but when your build is feat-starved (like most of my melees- for example, a dev-crit Barbarian/Bard/RDD) you really don’t want to spend that exotic weapon proficiency early in your career. This is especially true when you need to spend feats on things like heavy armor proficiency or weapon finesse on a dex-build. The kukri is definitely the best option though for a dual-wielding dev critter and/or weapon master. I just don’t play dual-wielders in the Badlands (with the exception of dual-kama monks), simply because the best drop, in my opinion, in the entire server is the Devastation Shell, so I want to sport that shield in my off-hand.

One additional correction to Deurack’s post- He mentioned that because the kukri is a “slashing” weapon, you can cast ‘keen edge’ on it. However, despite what the spell description says on NWN wikia, ‘keen edge’ will work on any weapon. I cast it on my rapiers all the time until I can obtain the “Rapier of the High”.

Finally, I’m going to really go out on a limb here and recommend that neither “Mysteria” nor the “Rapier of the High” is the best option under all circumstances. The boss dropped weapons are very powerful indeed, however, they cannot be altered outside of casting ‘Dark Fire’ on them. If you have access to the ‘Greater Magic Weapon (GMW)’ and ‘Keen Edge’ spells, then a mundane rapier or kukri upgraded in the Stone Conjoint may be your best option. Here’s why:

For example, you can add the following upgrades to a rapier (or kukri): Magical damage 1d10, Divine damage 1d10, Sonic 1d10, Electrical 1d8, and Cold 1d4.
By casting ‘Keen Edge’ and GMW (enhancement +5) on that same rapier, you’ll be doling out 11 – 53 hp damage on a normal hit (compare that with the 10 – 42 damage the “High” will get you). A kukri, with the same properties and GMW will do 11 – 51 damage (compared to 11 – 44 hp damage by “Mysteria”).

The +6 enhancement on ‘Mysteria’ and the “High” are definitely a boon, as you will hit your opponent slightly more often. But the damage output from the mundane upgraded rapier example above might make you want to sheath the “High” and pull out your Stone Conjoint rapier. For example:

Your AB with the above rapier with GMW and keen edge spells might be 60. Your opponent has an AC of 70. In 20 rolls, you will hit them 11 times (on average) and nail them for 121 – 583 hp damage on normal hits (average 352 hp damage). All critical hits would add up to 242 – 1166 hp damage (average 704 hp).
Compare that to if you were wielding the “Rapier of the High”. Your AB would be 61, so you hit that same AC 70 a total of 12 times (on average) and dish out 120 – 504 hp on normal hits (average 312 hp) and 240 – 1008 hp on all critical hits (average 624).
Based on that example, I suggest using your Stone Conjoint upgraded rapier. Unless your AB is really low, in which case you might need that extra attack bonus the Rapier of the High provides. It’s entirely up to you.

In case you’re wondering how an upgraded kukri stacks up against Mysteria. A kukri with the same upgrades as the rapier would dish out 11 – 51 damage on normal hits, compared with Mysteria’s 11 – 44 hp. I’ll let you do the rest of the math.

***note, none of the above examples includes damage from the spell Dark Fire, since it can be cast on all weapons, including boss drops.

9 comments:

Deurack said...

EXCELLENT post! Nice job with the research, and great thought went into that as well, very impressive.

I completely agree that a 'Stone Conjoint' weapon can do more overall damage than either the 'High' or 'Mysteri'. I believe I referred to that in my original post, not sure. My point was that if you want your AB as high as possible, and you're a Dex build, you're better off going with 'Mysteria' instead of the 'High'.

Another thing to take into consideration, and one of the MAIN reasons I consider Mysteria to be superior to the 'High' is the TYPE of damage done. Mysteria does a considerable amount of ELEMENTAL damage, while the 'High' does maily 'Slashing' and 'Piercing' damage. Both of these are absorbed by Epic Warding, while Elemental damage goes right through. Not a big deal when Xp'ing, but it can make or break you in a PK fight.

As to the question of spending a feat for the Kukri, I again completely agree. It is definitely better if you dont have to spend a feat to use your weapon of choice. However, unless you are either taking a class that gives access to martial weapons or you are an elf, you'll be taking a feat to use the Rapier anyway. If that is the case, you might as well take Exotic instead of Martial.

Really, the differences are not that great between the two. It really comes down to what you want to do. On every one of my builds that wields Mysteria, I still have my Stone Conjoint Kukri in my inventory :-)

Garble said...

Excellent post. Your math is good as far as I can see. A couple of things.

1. Do you know if Darkfire and Flame weapon will stack? I know that darkfire goes right over premonition. It doesn't add damage to the hit, it casts a spell every time it hits a target.

2. Since rapier and kukri have the same threat range and crit multiplier critical hits won't change much. It's not too bad if you want to account for critical hits

Assume that the hit lands. The total damage is equal to the damage of a critical hit times the chance that a critical hit lands + the damage of a normal hit times the chance a normal hit lands.

TOTAL damage = (%chance of a critical hit)* critical hit damage + (%chance of a non-critical hit)* non-critical hit damage.

So to make this easier to type
c = %chance of a critical hit
n = %chance of a non-critical hit
m = Critical Hit multiplier
D = Damage


c = (20-Threat range)/20
n = 1-%c


So

Total Damage = c*D*m + n*d
Total Damage = d*(c*m+n)

For a base rapier with no buffs or improvements and strength of 10

D=1D6~3.5 over time.
c=(20-17)/20 = 0.15
n=1-(20-17)/20 = 0.85

Total damage = 3.5*(0.15*2+.85)
Total damage = 4.025

Deurack said...

Jeez, impressive use of Math on a RPG Blog :P Now on to answering your question.

Flame Weapon and Dark Fire do not stack. I have a 15 Cleric/2 Monk/ 23 Wizard and I tried that with her. Too bad, but probably good for game balance. Darkfire does more damage initially, but is eventually left in the dust by Flame Weapon. Guess it depends on the level and class of your caster.

As to you math equation, here is what a Kukri would look like:
For a base kukri with no buffs or improvements and strength of 10

D=1D4~2 over time.
c=(20-17)/20 = 0.15
n=1-(20-17)/20 = 0.85

Total damage = 2*(0.15*2+.85)
Total damage = 2.3

As I said in my post about the Kukri, while the Rapier will in fact do more damage over time, the difference is minimal. It basically works out to 1.725, which I do not find to be a significant enough reason to chose the Rapier over the Kukri. So again, it will pretty much come down to what class and race you are playing, and whether you want to maximize your AB while still having some decent Elemental damage. The differences and advantages are small on both side. It really comes down to personal choice.

Garble said...

I think the real advantage of the kukri is that you can dual wield it. But you don't HAVE to do so. Farming spiders or trogs? Drop the shield for 2 extra attacks per round (1 extra crit if you're a weapon master). Need the extra AC? Switch back. I haven't tried this yet, but Q's fighter/wm/cleric is interesting. Not sure if I'd want 20 levels of cleric though. If you take 5 fighter post epic you can get a couple of extra feats.

Kukri does 2.5 over time.

( 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ) = 10 / 4 = 2.5

Also, why do say flame weapon will leave darkfire in the dust? It looks like the advance at different rates and eventually end about the same place.

Darkfire:
Description: This spell allows the caster to immolate a non-magical weapon. The weapon will do 1d6 points of damage, +1 per two caster levels (maximum of +10) of fire damage. The caster can either target a specific melee weapon in his inventory or a creature to enchant the weapon the creature is wielding.

Flame weapon
Description: Sets a melee weapon aflame, granting 1d4 points of fire damage +1 per caster level to a maximum of +10. You can target a specific weapon or a creature with this spell.

Garble said...

oops, it should have said (1+2+3+4)/4

my bad

Deurack said...

Oops. I thought for some reason that Flame Weapon could get higher than +10, dont know why.

Terry17 said...

Originally it was different. Flame Weapon is 1d4 + 1 per level (max of 10 levels) and Darkfire was 1d6 + 1 per 2 levels (max of 20 levels). So the respective maxes where 1d4 + 10 and 1d6 + 10. Some where in one of the script changes for spells and/or scrolls (I'm not sure when) the level caps became 10 levels for both, so Darkflame is now 1d6 + 5 max.

Terry17 said...

On a side note...
The +6 enhancement bonus on the Rapier of the High, does not stack with the +1d10 piercing damage. The +6 overwrites the +1d10. You can check your character sheet when you have the weapon equiped.

Qwildurn said...

Since this article was posted, (not because it was posted), Keen has been changed. This is part of a re-balance that includes other changes.

Keen is no longer available to be put on non-slashing weapons.

Possibly, there might be a boss drop or two that break this rule.

But, the upgrade shops and the player spells no longer put keen on non-slashing weapons. A Rapier is a piercing weapon.

Another part of the re-balance is how much element damage can be put on a weapon. The upper limit is now equal to the base damage of said weapon. Examples:
Kukri is 1d4 base and element is 1d4 cap.
Long Sword is 1d8 base with 1d8 element cap.
Great Axe is 1d12 base with 1d12 element cap.

Three element types can be used from a list of 8 or so. This does not effect player cast buffs like Darkfire.