The way NWN did the mechanics behind 'Turn' is that it is "hit-dice" based. Only Paladins and Clerics get 'Turn'. I think COT can add to 'Turn' but does not get 'Turn'.
A Cleric uses his / her Cleric levels to determine the base 'hit'. A Paladin is 'Paladin level -2'. Cleric levels and Paladin(-2) levels are added together. All other class levels are ignored. COT levels might be used, I don't remember. This number is compared to the 'hit-dice' of the Undead monster. If the undead has a greater number, you just lost. PERIOD.
Once you do hit with 'Turn', your Charisma bonus is used to determine the strength and damage. It starts at your location, moving in a growing spiral. The 'turn' will attempt to turn as many undead as your charisma bonus and stop regardless of how many were turned. The charisma bonus is used again to determine weather you killed them or just softened them up.
There is a dice roll here for each undead. Each undead rolls it's own dice and you roll for each undead monster. Some will be 'Turned', some will not.
Feat: Turn Outsider works the same way except with different numbers. Taking Turn Outsider will strengthen Turn Undead as well as all the other 'Turn' based monsters. Other 'Turn' based monster are 'Domain' based. Only Clerics get a Domain.
I have actually gone into the 'Turn' Script to get the exact list.
- Element
- AIR_DOMAIN_POWER
- EARTH_DOMAIN_POWER
- FIRE_DOMAIN_POWER
- FIRE_DOMAIN_POWER
- (fire domain counts as +2)
- (fire domain counts as +2)
- Vermin
- PLANT_DOMAIN_POWER
- ANIMAL_COMPANION
- Constructs
- DESTRUCTION_DOMAIN_POWER
- Outsider
- GOOD_DOMAIN_POWER
- EVIL_DOMAIN_POWER
- If you want to turn a construct in Highland, you will need something like 35 cleric levels and the Destruction Domain. I'm not sure if Paladin and COT levels will stack here or not.
- This NWN script has NOT been modified to see over level 40, so you will never be able to turn a Construct in the Doom Mines.
- Players are not recognized as anything except players.
- Monk level 16+ should be an Outside, but NWN did not provide support.
- Elemental Subraces are not seen as true elements.
- Pale Master level 10 should be seen as Undead and should become evil, but NWN does not provide this support.
- The list goes on....
The way the Lich thing works is you need to be 30 levels of Wizard or 30 levels of Sorcerer and 10 levels of Pale Master and Chaotic Evil. Once you do the "quest" (no details here) you can be transformed into a Lich. But guess what? For all the extra power you get, a well built Undead Hunter has the means to take you down because ..... you are now Undead!
Don't hold your breath and don't get your panties in an uproar, cause it won't be finished anytime soon. But, the PVP Action goes on.
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18 comments:
Cool stuff and good to know. One thing I'll mention is that the ONLY place I've been able to use Turn Undead to destroy the undead that I turn is in the Dozo Ruins, even with a level 38 Cleric with a massive Wisdom score. You can get some of the other undead on the server to wander off aimlessly from a Turn but not destroy them. What does that mean practically? I put "Turn Undead" on a hot button and use it RELIGIOUSLY (no pun intended) until I get to level 9. Then I delete the hot button and never think Turn Undead again.
That's beause wisdom isn't used for 'Turn Undead'. Only class levels and charisma bonus. If you make a Battle Cleric like I do, trading Charisma for extra Strength, you will need to be level 30 or so before you can turn the level one skeletons in the noob areas.
Another lessor know fact is Cleric Bless. It can be used to Bless bolts. It works like Paladin Bless Weapon, except you must open your inventory and target the bolt stack. I can't recall exactly what it does other than become an instant kill for a Rakasasha.
Good luck getting past our Rak Boss's AC. I once gave myself a level 40 cleric to go kill the Rak. I had max wisdom because Bless is wisdom based. I took one level monk for the AC and Zen Archery. I couldn't come close to hitting the Orange Monster and he swatted me down before I could get off a 3rd shot. Maybe if I had a PM Meat Shield to hide behind....but I was alone as usual.
Darkness + lack of TS = PROFIT
Actually, you can destroy the zombies and mummies in the Dozo Ruins with 8 Charisma. Unless NWN is different, and it probably is, Turn Undead in classic DND was a combination of Charisma and Wisdom. Charisma determined how many you could hit, and Wisdom determined how much 'damage' you did.
@ Deurack, it is. Just try and graduate the academy with 8 cha on your cleric. One of my major frustrations with the single player game.
The good news here is, I can change how 'Turn Undead' works and make more like classic DND.
Just in case you haven't noticed, I am getting tired of this watered-down NWN crap. They made an excellent game engine, but it's all adjusted for single player getting through the stand-alone champaign the came in the box.
Q, are you saying you want to make clerics more like the old pnp game?
Not exactly, it's just that there are a lot of things that we all (separately or collectively) seem remember and miss. In some ways it has more to do with balance. In others, to bring a class back into life by giving back it's missing abilities.
A well built Cleric should be able to Turn (or at least try) a high level Monk. NWN did not provide support for this, but I can.
We don't have any subraces that are undead, yet, (although a Bard/PM/RDD with 16 PM level should be damn close). It seems to me that a Cleric or Paladin should be able to hunt a player that favors the Dark Side. As it stands now, a PM 16 that stays neutral can't be critted, smited, or turned. I'm suggesting that we could alter this. As it stands now, Paladin is pretty damn useless in BadLands when they should be chasing Pale Masters around.
I gotta agree with Q. Heck, I think that 10 levels of Pale Master should qualify a person as an "Undead". I'm pretty sure that's the idea behind not being vulnerable to Critical Hits.
The only real reason to make a TRUE Paladin anymore is to do the quest and get the goodies...most of which are passed on to other people. Speaking of which, does anyone have a Paladin around level 40? I'm gonna want to do that quest soon :P
What are shades? I dont think they're undead specifically, but they dont seem to be from the "natural" plane of existence, if you know what I mean. Would a Cleric be able to turn them? Also, I think that the different Giths, Genasi, Tiefling and Assimar are all outsiders. Could be wrong, it's been a LONG time since I've seen a Monster Manual, but I think they would qualify.
As I understand the BadLands description of Shades, it's not undead.
I would need to check the monster manual about most of these subraces as well as a few others. This will effect the game balance extremely, and we will need to re-adjust from the change, but it should be a better balance and a more fun PVP experience. Not to mention, bringing back unused races and classes and re-thinking our build / play strategies.
I’ve gotta admit, I’m torn on the idea of giving Clerics the ability to turn player characters. I mean, it’s a really cool idea that is ABSOLUTELY in keeping with the spirit of the old-school DND, but I’m not sure that the Cleric class really needs any more power. I mean really, the class is already Uber. Giving it the ability to turn player characters might just put it over the edge of insanity.
If this is something we try, it should require a cleric that has almost all cleric levels to even have a minor effect. Giving the ability to turn a player to a build with only 20 or lower levels in cleric would make some of the builds running around almost godlike. In pen & paper DND a turned creature runs for it’s life, but here in NWN they just kinda wander aimlessly, which means a total lack of any Dex Ac and they’re probably flat footed at well. Can you say overpowering? So much for the Monk builds vaunted AC and Epic Dodge. They would be sacrificial lambs.
On the other hand, it would resurrect an ability that is largely ignored. People would have to start really thinking about the possibility taking some feats that would improve their turning ability but also the possibility of getting turned themselves.
I think that Pale Masters should be the exclusion to this rule, if that’s possible. They CHOSE to become undead beings and they enjoy some pretty powerful rewards as a result. I think it’s only fitting that they suffer some pretty powerful penalties as well.
I definitely think that the Paladin needs a power buff. It’s a cool class that can do some nice things if tossed into a build, but you almost never see a pure paladin because they’re so limited.
Would it be possible to have the different variables that would allow a character to be turned to stack? For example, if a character is a Githzeria and is considered an outsider and thereby able to be turned, and they are also a level 20 Monk, would those 2 variables stack, thereby making it easier to turn that character? Just a thought.
I must say, this is certainly a very interesting idea that could have HUGE effects on game balance and the way people build and play their toons.
Deurack said... If this is something we try, it should require a cleric that has almost all cleric levels to even have a minor effect.And a whole bunch of other good stuff....
As Bioware wrote the Turn Undead script, it is Cleric Class level vs Monster Total level. Keeping to that, a build with 17 Cleric levels will never be able to turn an 18 level player. The Cleric build might be level 60, but only the 17 Cleric level count.
To turn an Outsider, the cleric needs Feat: Turn Outsider. To turn a player Monk Outsider, the cleric would be forced into staying pure just to have a chance. And, yes, the build would probably need to be tweaked hard.
Who builds a cleric in BadLands for the purpose of turning Vamps in the Sewers or The Forgotten in The Lonely Slopes? (Did you even know they were undead? I've seen Pally's get their ass whooped hard because they didn't think to buff up for these undead.) Knowing all this, I've never even tried to Turn a Construct.
To even attempt to turn a Construct or an Elemental, the Cleric must choose domains we seldom take here. What? No more War Cry? No more Improved Invisible? No more Stone Skin? No more Blade Barrier?
Oh my, when pigs fly!
Cleric is the class to get domains, therefore, the only class to be abler to try to Turn anything other than normal Undead.
And yes, all this is in a script that I can change.
I like the idea of improving the turn feature, because 1st and foremost a cleric was a priest and healer in the PnP version. And being able to turn a PM might actually give them something to worry about.
I also think that it would be cool to have a shake up of some of the races and classes. As it might make people try diffrent things, because at the moment everyone uses clerics just to improve there attacks and to get invis. Which is fine as i do it myself but variation is the spice of life as they say.
I think shades are classes as outsiders because i think there from the shadow realm or something.
(make PM's a floating skull so they can't wear armour hold a shield or use a scimeter, make it so they are just a mage like liches should be)
Extomorf said: "make PM's a floating skull so they can't wear armour hold a shield or use a scimeter, make it so they are just a mage like liches should be"
NO!!! BAD IDEA!!! No one would ever use the class again. If that's what you want, then ban the class, dont make it so lame and gay as to be unusable. Even my 29/10/1 Pale Master Mage builds wear armor and carry a shield. Not to mention that Pale Masters are just Undead, not a Lich. There's a HUGE difference. Also, not all Liches are just floating heads. In fact, the first one I've seen like that in the game was in Hordes of the Underdark.
Anyway, that idea scared me a little. BAD!! BAD!! NO!!
I agree with Deurack.
Leave the Pale Master class alone.
A Bard / PM / RDD is not a Lich. For that matter, I can't even imagine a Bard ever becoming a Lich. Usually it's just evil Mages seeking more power that are willing to sacrifice themselves to get power beyond what a mere human can obtain.
Yeah, like Belpheron :P
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