Okay, Im sorry, but after reading the comments from THIS post, I have to wonder about the person creating and DM'ing these so called "Blind Quests".
Here is how I interpret Q's logic on quests & DnD.
Qwildurn as Dungeon Master of a Pen & Paper Game
Q: “Your party wanders into a town”
Player1: “Is there anyone nearby I can talk to?”
Q: “Yes, but they don’t know anything.”
Player2: “Do I see any signs?”
Q: “Yeah, but they don’t lead anywhere helpful.”
Player1: “Oookaaay, do I have a gut feeling telling me where to look?”
Q: “No.”
Player2 “Grr, ok, I start digging right here, do I find anything helpful?”
Q: “No.”
Player1: “WTF, ok, I map the entire city with a 12” x 12” grid and comb the entire thing. Anything now?”
Q: “You find a map that doesn’t lead anywhere, and a broken compass.”
Player2: “This is INSANE, I’m gonna go stab some horses in the face, let me know when you find something .”
And the night continued on like this until Players 1 & 2 drank themselves into oblivion.
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9 comments:
LOL! That is a classic! And yes, it pretty much summarizes the frustration that comes with trying to accomplish the Mandros Quest in the Badlands.
The oft-mentioned "Spirit of D&D" that is supposed to exist in the Badlands is nothing like the table game that many of us remember so well. Without getting too far into it, DM's were supposed to guide you along a quest. Apart from the games where it was understood that a DM was trying to kill the PCs at every turn, a DM's role was to keep everyone in character and (most importantly) keep the plot moving along!
I did a fair amount of DMing myself back in the day, and I made a LOT of custom modules. I didn't spend all that time and effort to have the players get bored and go sit in the Vulgar Unicorn tavern. Quests were made to be quested. No one would've had fun if I hadn't dropped a hint here or there. It's okay to let PCs fail, I agree, but when the adventure got stagnant, you HAVE to move things along. To not do so is sadistic and a complete waste of time.
That's why no one does the Mandros quest. I can think of numerous times over the past two years when new players found Mandros, the map and compass, then got totally stuck and started shouting for a little help. The typical response (and I've heard this from seasoned veterans of the BL) is "don't bother... that quest is a pain in the ass and it's buggy." If I were the creator of said quest, I'd be pissed. Not at the players, but because all the time and effort put into creating it is wasted because no one will do the damn thing!
Because criticism without advice is simply ridicule, here are my suggestions:
1) Make it ABSOLUTELY clear what the requirements for the quest are. I.e., 40th level PURE paladin, AND 40th level PURE rogue, etc. Also, are there alignment restrictions? I.e., does everyone in party need to be Lawful Good, etc.
By making things clear, it will save people many days leveling the WRONG build, only to find out, it doesn't work. If you made it perfectly clear what the party needs to be, I'd be glad attempt the quest someday. As it is, my time is limited, and I'm not going to waste it on a buggy quest.
2) Drop an NPC or a hint somewhere. There are certain items you obtain during the quest, yet there is NO clue as to what to do with them or where to take them. A good DM will drop a hint now and then.
3) Fix the bugs. I think the best way to do this is when a party (meeting all of the above requirements) is attempting the quest, someone follows along as a DM and notes any and all bugs along the way... and these bugs get fixed soon.
Look, I know Leaf (and later Q) spent a LOT of time creating and refining the Monasul/Mandros Quest. Therefore, I think it's a shame that it has become an inside joke for the veterans who play there, and a constant source of frustration for any level tens that defeat the Keeper of the Ruins and get all excited when they talk to some guy named Mandros.
ROFLMAO...that original post was too funny, and I think pretty much on target. I completely agree with everything Jim said in response, although I understand the impracticality of a DM following the group of adventurers trying to do the quest. Great in theory, but there's not always a DM on to do that.
Here's something I posted in the "Can we bring this back?" post that pertains to the Mandros quest;
"Also, in regards to the Mandros Quest, I think the hardest part of the quest BY FAR is the "Pure" aspect of the classes. If the Alignment and "pure class" restrictions were lifted there would be ALOT more people trying to do the quest. But like someone said previously, the way the quest stands now not only do you have to create a toon specifically to do the quest, but you have to get 3 of your buddies to do the same. That's just not practical. It's hard enough to get the right amount of people on the server at the same time to do the quest without getting people to coordinate what classes they're leveling. And then there's the argument about how effective those "pure" toons will be after they to the quest and get the drop. I remember pre-wipe when some of the DM's were more liberal with "re-levels" it was EXTREMELY common for a person to do the quest for the Holy Avenger with the expressed intention of getting a re-level done to convert the "pure Paladin" into a 29 Paladin /1 Sorcerer /RDD 10 build. The concept of keeping the sword on a "pure paladin" was laughable. It was considered a waste of a good weapon."
Excellent points, Deurack.
I realize that Q wants the "throwback" D&D party to do the quest. He outlined them in that previous post: Strong fighter, weakling mage, healer cleric, and hobbit.
That's fine if you're playing the original (and I mean the ancient boxed set) D&D.
Thing is, D&D evolved to the point where players could be versatile, to a point. You could actually MULTI-CLASS!!! Wow, now there's a concept. Oh, and if you were a halfling ("hobbit" was copyrighted) you could be something other than a rogue. It would make a LOT more sense if the Mandros quest allowed multiclass builds. Maybe with certain restrictions. I've done a little NwN module building, and I know it's EASY to add prereqs like that (i.e. check for 20 lvls of paladin, or something like that). You don't see many pure classes running around the BL (except for the occassional mage). And why is that? Well, frankly, they suck ass. So, in keeping "In character", my Holy Paladin would at some point realize that he'd be a lot fucking tougher if he took a level or sorcerer and then RDD, or combined Pally w/ WM and Monk (now, where have I heard THAT build mentioned :)
LOL indeed.. hilarious.. where's the cartoon to make it even funnier?? :)
Well, I've played pen & paper AD&D (only the second edition.. by the third one I had already moved on to Vampire the Masquerade) and I know how important a DM is to the plot.
I also know that in a "virtual" scenario of a MMORPG or any RPG for that matter, the machine makes almost 99% of the work a true DM would've to make in real life rpg group.
We just have to be practical here. Trying to force an online game to be exactly like "old school" pen & paper.. well, it won't work..
A group of buds getting together to drink some and have a great time in a imaginary world where dragons and other incredible creatures live and die.. it makes sense having them all hanging around together, teamwork and all..
But virtual games help break this barrier of physical presence. You can play it anytime you want, with whoever is on.. which is great but also means you can't really expect to find people willing to help you whenever you want. That's the drawback of MMORG.. people have their lives, they play when they can..
And I agree, the requirement that you be in a party of 4 seems out of place in the Badlands. Let's be honest, this isn't a "party" server. If it really was, it wouldn't be in the Action tab. There's rarely enough people on to get a classic party together... maybe 1 PC will be within your level range. People come here to log in, play one build solo for an hour or less, then either play a different build, boss kill a little, then log out. Anyone that I get in "party" with is usually on the other side of Sheelo and nowhere near my level... partying is just to ease conversation in game.
Here's my bottomline suggestion: The Mandros quest is totally out of place in the BL. It should be revamped, or, quite frankly, it should be removed because it is a time waster for noobs... and a joke for vets.
I'm just giving it to you straight IMHO.
Also, leave it to Simon to post something like this, get me and Deurack all stirred up with blood shooting out of our eyes, then leave for the weekend. LOL
Q: "Player1, The gust of wind blew the old brush away and you spot an old well."
Player1: "I run over to the well and look down to see what's inside."
Q: rolls die, "You slipped and fell into the deep well. You're not hurt, but you are standing ankle deep in mud."
Player1: "Can I climb out?"
Q: "The walls are to slick."
Player1: "I scream and yell for help."
Q: "Player2, You hear a muffled noise coming from the old well."
Player2: "I walk over to the well slowly, I think it might be a Kobold trap, again."
Q: "No Kobolds, but you do hear Player1 inside the well."
Player2: "Do I have a rope in my pack?"
Q: "You did, until that last Kobold Assassin picked your pocket."
Player1 and Player2: "What Kobold Assassin?"
Q: "The one with a million hide skills you didn't see."
Player2: "I want to search the town for a rope. Is there one I can find or buy?"
Q: "Yes. There is a rope swinging from the gallows."
Player2: "I got the rope down and I am lowering it into the well to help my friend out!"
Q: pretends to roll dice "You slip and fall into the well. The mud is getting deeper and your skin is starting to burn."
Q: "Your hopelessly stuck in the well forever. But not to worry, you're sinking into quick mud and the acid is dissolving your flesh and bones very slowly. The pain is beyond explanation. The only good news is you won't leave a rotting corpse for the Kobolds to loot."
Most of the 'blind' quests are original to BadLands. Setting up 'Quest Givers' is something that I haven't got around to yet.
The quest for the Tattoo Gun is my work. Is that 'blind'?
Deimonos made a few quests. I don't think they are 'blind'.
On the other side of this argument, is the folklore thing. "Word-of-mouth." Experienced players talking about stuff and newer players listening. There are as few NPC's as possible (I think) because it is Players who are expected to fill these roles.
Guild leaders that actually lead. Guild leaders who give out quests and reward their members that do these quests. (I think the guild leader can use the amulet to give out a few XP)
Instead of inviting every toon in without question and setting them to a high rank, have them do something to prove they are worthy. If they are near level 25, ask them to bring you a Silver Shield. High rank is earned, not just given out to any and every weakling.
About the Mandros' Quest: The alignment restrictions were always there. Only the Paladin needs to be 'pure'. I tried to adjust it so you can get the Holy Avenger at level 30. Why you think you need to wait till 40 is beyond me. Once you get the sword, you can multi-class.
Any real Rogue with good Rogue skills knows that being True/Neutral is the best way.
When players ask me, I try to tell them enough to get started on the right foot. Can I help it if they think that possessing their Pixie will work? And then they think the quest is broken because they don't try, or don't have the skills to do certain Rogue things?
Some players want everything given to them for free. Those types want me to give them all the answers before they even start. What can I say? Part of DND is trying to solve puzzles, not having the puzzle solved for you by the DM because you are lazy.
Most who get stuck, do start asking me questions. And I do help them. I may not give away the answer direct, but I will give them enough so they can guess it while I am there.
I did add clues along the way, but, as I said before, get a party together.
Clue 1: Mandros does say that you need to be "pure of heart". That is normal cryptic DND talk for Paladin.
Clue 2: I changed the jail cell Mandros is in. I locked it. You can't get in to get the map without a Rogue.
Hint 3: Grease will only sell oil to a True Neutral (that would be the parties Rogue).
Hint 4: While you are sailing you must find three islands. This is random as to where you sail to. The 'party' needs to stay on the boat and let the leader (that would be the Paladin) keep trying to use the compass. When the leader gets to the next island, the party can join him.
Hint 5: After you find all the items, then the Captain explains why he tried to trick you.
Hint 6: Let 'The Leader' lead. It is a Paladin's Quest. The Paladin is suppose to have the crown.
Hint 7: The ugly lady will only open the gate for a Paladin. She might attack if you're not a Paladin.
Clue and Hint 8: The Ruin puzzle is set to a new random order each time it is solved. This is Rogues work. The others should stand back so they won't be hurt if the Rogue fails.
Hint 9: Paladins are suppose to hunt evil, not travel with them. Aparth.... whatever his name is, will get pissed if evil shows up trying to help the Pally.
Hint 10: Mandros had told you to go get this special sword. He had said it was the only weapon capable of killing Monasul. Now you need go kill him.
Hint 11: Now go to Newport and talk to the Priest in the Temple. The entire party must be there together or they won't get their rewards.
Rewards 12:
Paladin: Bastard Sword;
Mage: Sequencer Robe;
Cleric or Druid: Armor, choice of two;
Rogue: Helm;
Note 13: The Holy Avenger is usable once the first evil mage is killed.
All other items are not usable until you complete the entire quest.
Ridicule 14: The Rogue didn't find his helm because he didn't have good rogue skills or wasn't using his rogue skills.
Note 15: The main part of the quest can only be done once per character.
Q,
Thanks for the clues and tips. I'll be honest. I don't think I'd *ever*have figured out all of that on my own.
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