Speaking of interesting items and things that could spawn some different build ideas, can we bring this little beauty back? Right now the "whip drop" is the Ritualist whip, which sucks Donkey Schlong (in my humble opinion).
Just a thought.
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Actually, since making this post I have thought of one possible use for the Ritualist Schlong so maybe instead of replacing it just add "Le Whip" to a different boss. Hell, put it on the Medusa, no one uses "Leech" anyway.
Uhm, I actually meant to put 'Le Whip' as the Bebilith drop. For the next update I have already made the change.
In truth, most of the boss drops need to be re-thought. Most pale in comparison to a well made store-bought item. At best, a boss dropped sword only offers +2 extra AB with less element damage. Big f*#$%ing whoopdy-do.
There was a time where there were three dagger drops. LMAO. What we really need is one nice boss drop for every type of item.
A Dire Mace named 'Q-Tip' with tons of sonic damage (for the fluffy white ends).
No Realm would be complete without a sweet longsword and we don't even have a crappy longsword.
For the next upgrade I do have a new Quested Upgrade Engine. In concept, it came from Leafs 2083 module. You have seen some of the unused boss drops like 'Stink Needle'. The Stink Needle will allow you to upgrade ANY weapon to +7 AB, providing you have done certain other things.
I won't spoil the surprise, but, this will render most current boss drops to mere money-makers. I won't do it for this next upgrade, but, after that we might want to start re-thinking boss drops. Just lumps of useless gold? Or a few select prizes? I think the Widow Maker and Dev Shield will still be desirable, but almost everything else will be classified best as, "Eh, so what. Sell it and go build something nicer."
Remember what I said about a use for the Ritualist Schlong? Yeah, disregard that. I thought that it would be nice for a Mage to be able to get Haste from the whip and free up some space for more Spell Slots on the cloak, but I forgot that you need "Weapon Proficiency: Exotic" to use it, and not having Haste on the cloak only frees up 1 extra spell slot. Personally, I'm not willing to spend a feat just to get 1 spell slot.
As to what Q was saying, I agree that it would be really nice to have a "Boss Drop" type item for every major weapon type so people can build whatever they want, instead of building to what is available. I also agree that most of the Boss Drop Items do need to be re-thought. I see WAY too much extra "physical" damage (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing) and not enough Elemental.
However, I would disagree that most of them pale in comparison to a well-made personal weapon. That certainly used to be the case, but since Q put the new limits on how many different types of Elemental damage cold be put on a weapon, and what "dice" damage you could put on, some of the boss drops are better than what you can make. Not all, but some. I think that if many of the Boss Drop items were re-tooled to have the same amount of "extra" damage but in Elemental instead of Physical they would be more attractive. (elemental damage goes through Damage Reduction spells).
In response to Q's question about the items being either lumps of gold or just a few prized items, I dont think that lowering the amount of Boss Drop quality items would be a good thing. I think that might cause some players to get upset. If there is a concern of there being too much easily accessible gold on the server due to boss drops, you could (I cant believe I'm about to say this) set a cap on how much Guzz and his brother will sell for. I'm pretty sure that they're the only ones that have no cap on them right now. Putting a cap on them would drastically lower the available gold. NOT THAT I'M ENDORSING THAT COURSE OF ACTION, but it is an alternative to lowering the amount of powerful items. If I had to chose between the amount of items or gold, I take Items. You can get gold in other ways.
Guzz and his estranged brother are the only stores that pay 100% and have no cap. This will not change.
ideas for better boss drops might be things you just can't buy.
Ideas are
1. Bonus feats. Boots of improved evasion for instance. Or a helm of lasting inspiration.
2. Skill bonus. How about gloves with +20 perform.
3. LIMITED buff's. For instance if medusa dropped a mirror that could give you +10 to spell resistance but only had 1 charge it'd let some of the non-monk builds get their SR above 60 for a limited amount of time.
4. Scroll of Mords. There's already a scroll of true seeing you can get but since bashers get deep orcs and monks all take 15 levels of cleric it's sort of pointless.
5. A wand / Staff / Rod that casts something other than IGMs but with a very high DC. A staff of thunder clap with a DC of 50 might be interesting. Again limited charges and give to a boss that isn't mage bait.
6. Plate mail that has damage resistance magic.
7. A +7 Vorpal Long sword would be interesting. Nothing else, just vorpal.
8. Wounding as a property.
9. A bow that fires max damage arrows with a limitless quiver (like forever in hordes but scaled up for the badlands.)
Also, the more I think about it the more I think gold should be tightened up. The best way to get gold ought to be stealing it from locked, trapped chests (disable know and find/remove traps) and not by farming bosses/frost giants. That would make rogues more useful.
7. A +7 Vorpal Long sword would be interesting. Nothing else, just Vorpal.There was a boss drop Spear with Vorpal. I never did understand what Vorpal is/does. Terry tried to explain it to me once and I'm still lost. Terry built a toon just for that drop and eventually decided it wasn't worth the efforts.
I removed the drop later, mostly because I thought that the boss drops were to lumpy. (one boss dropped 5 items while another dropped one worthless thing.) I spread the drops out to be a bit more even. Some went to new bosses.
8. Wounding as a property.Part of the next update as a quested item.
9. A bow that fires max damage arrows with a limitless quiver (like forever in hordes but scaled up for the badlands.)The bows with unlimited arrows have crap arrows, one element of 1d6 only. It would be a nice low-level prize, but you can't upgrade or change the arrows. Did I mention that a single 1d6 element is the only item on the arrows? This bow with unlimited arrows was intended for Henchmen that can't buy more arrows when they run out.
I think gold should be tightened up. The best way to get gold ought to be stealing it from locked, trapped chests (disable know and find/remove traps) and not by farming bosses/frost giants. That would make rogues more useful.Did you mean 'Knock' the spell?
Find/remove traps the mage spell was disabled long ago. Knock only works if I script it for each chest/door I want it to work on. Nobody has ever scripted for Knock.
Making Rogues more useful, giving them something to do at low and mid levels is one thing I never did a lot about. Leaf had a few things around, but any toon with 1 skill could disable/unlock everything. I did raise the bar in some places. But I just haven't got around to adding a lot of Rouge stuff.
I did add some challenging stuff for a as a quest, but to date, nobody has ever found it. And no, I won't give out any clue. If you guys would stay 'in character' and play real DND, your Rogue would have found it.
Just like nobody has ever completed the Mandros' Quest. You only think you have. Again, you guys need to stay in-character and play DND.
If I lock down all the loot, then fighters and other non-rogues won't be able to upgrade.
In an ideal realm, a rounded party is needed in order to survive. Usually four to a group. Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Mage. Only good rogue skills could get past traps and locks. Only a strong sword could cut down the monsters. A cleric was more of a doctor than anything else, and was most useful against the undead. The mage.... had to be carried until she became high-level. By then the monsters had become so ugly that only her great magic could stop them. The fighter was a wall that protected the mage while she cast. The cleric was busy keeping the fighter alive. The rogue, was useless in a real fight, but nobody else could find the secret passages and traps. Everybody had a job to do and a prize to find. Separately, in pairs, or even three, it was imposable. But as a balanced party of four, they were unstoppable.
Q said: 7. A +7 Vorpal Long sword would be interesting. Nothing else, just Vorpal.There was a boss drop Spear with Vorpal. I never did understand what Vorpal is/does. Terry tried to explain it to me once and I'm still lost. Terry built a toon just for that drop and eventually decided it wasn't worth the efforts.Vorpal is a quality on weapons that works like instant death if you fail the pre-determined fort save. Kinda like dev crit, but the save can't get higher afterwards.
So, his bard/wm/rdd with dev crit (spear) had actually 2 chances at landing a "death" hit. One with his own might and efforts, probably with a decent DC save and the second one if the target failed the weapon's vorpal DC (which I recall was around 17 or so)..
Also i think for vorpal to work you had to a natruel 20 so it won't matter what the threat range is on the weapon. monks can get a feat called vorpal strike in the PnP version.
(I think vorpal actually decapitated the oppenment so in affect you could kind of dev crit a vamp)
It might be interesting to have Vorpal. Probably on something a bit more practical like a Longsword that can still be upgraded.
Another thing we can experiment with is a feat called SAP. It looks like it was once a low-level player feat that was removed from the list (at level-up) but not removed from the game. I did make a test sub-race on a private server once. I was able to give SAP as a sub-race feat. It works a lot like Monk Stunning Blow, except, you can't use it with fist or ranged, only a melee weapon. It actually seemed quite effective at low levels, but in the higher levels it seemed useless. The DC probably doesn't grow.
Q said
Again, you guys need to stay in-character and play DND.
If I lock down all the loot, then fighters and other non-rogues won't be able to upgrade.
In an ideal realm, a rounded party is needed in order to survive. Usually four to a group. Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Mage. Only good rogue skills could get past traps and locks. Only a strong sword could cut down the monsters. A cleric was more of a doctor than anything else, and was most useful against the undead. The mage.... had to be carried until she became high-level. By then the monsters had become so ugly that only her great magic could stop them. The fighter was a wall that protected the mage while she cast. The cleric was busy keeping the fighter alive. The rogue, was useless in a real fight, but nobody else could find the secret passages and traps. Everybody had a job to do and a prize to find. Separately, in pairs, or even three, it was imposable. But as a balanced party of four, they were unstoppable.
You’ve said several times that the “True spirit of DnD” is a 4 person party with a caster, tank, cleric, and rogue. I don’t agree with this but I can see where you’re coming from. Either way it seems like you want this, but BL isn’t set up to encourage it so no one does it that way.
If you really want to see more parties on BL you need things that require a broad range of skills.
The multi-class party was driven in part by having to make hard choices in your build.
Here are some examples
If I want a really high damage output I need to take lots of str and give up dex/AC and HP.
If I want a powerful caster I need to crank int/chr for a high DC and I give up HP, and AC. Plus I’ll need help if don’t want to rest all the time. Or if the area I’m in doesn’t allow rest and if I leave I have to fight my way back through.
If I want useful SR I need lots of levels of monk so I give up give up cross class abilities. If I want to make lots of money and find all the stuff I play a rogue and give up tons of stuff. (plus sneak attack is much easier with a party)
If I want really high saves I need a pally/COT
If I want a of lot HP I give up damage and AC.
The gear and sub-races change all of this by letting you fill the gaps in and create a much more min/maxed toon. This isn’t necessarily easier, just different.
You can make a PW like this. I’ve played on several. They’re fun, but different and to be honest I like BL fine just the way it is.
I don’t really understand your love of ‘blind’ quests. So far as I know there 2 quest on BL, Find the tat gun and the Mandros quest. I’ve tried Mandros a couple of times and even had a lvl 30 great smite pally build for it. But I got lost and gave up. I couldn’t figure out what to do next and wasn’t sure if what I was doing was working. You’ve said in other comments that it requires a party with a pure rogue and pure caster as well. If that’s the case why do you have it? I could see the point in an ultra hard blind quest if there were a lot of other quests about and you wanted a capstone for the real quest hounds. But that’s not the case. Heck, if your few hints are correct the builds required to complete this quest aren’t really useful for anything else. And it’s not like there are a lot of NPC’s to talk to for clues and information. It’s like if I told you “visit Jim so he can give you a new car. Jim lives in Texas. You’ll have to drive there. But you can’t have a map and there’s no one around whose been to texas for you to talk to.” Anyway BL isn’t really about quests and it’s cool pretty much the way it is.
I like the idea of some more quest as it gives you something else to do. Because at the moment, you start a toon, work your way up to lvl 9 and buy haste. Then you get a couple more lvls then kill vamps for about 5 or 6 lvls then head to UD and take on the drow. You then reach lvl 21 and upgrade fully if you can then it's back to the drow for a few more lvls then up the mountain. Which is all fun and good but sometimes i don't see the point because most people seem to be making the same builds all the time.
As for the quest me and a mate are in process of lvling a pure pali and rogue so we can have a go at the quest because, it's something different to do and also my mate wants the great axe from monasul.
I can see Garbles point about the builds not being usefull anywhere else, well a pure mage would be ok and possibly the pali, but the whole point of the quest is for the holy avenger which is great against undead but is it any good else where? (also with the spell holy sword you can make a weapon temperarelly a holy avenger) Are there any rewards for the person that makes the pure rogue or cleric?
Garble and extomorf bring up a lot of valid points.
Just to be the smart-ass that I normally am, I did pedal my bicycle across Texas once. That was my warm up trip. Later I pedaled from Boston to Colorado (went the long way through Main).
Now, back to BadLands, and the quests (or lack of), Parties, Builds, Drops, NPC's, and so on.
The Mandros' Quest is original to BadLands. It was built by Leaf Stone, the original author of BadLands. (It was there the first time I played five or more years ago.) I did make some changes to it, but, I have stayed true to the original dialog that Mandros has. I smoothed out the quest by making some things easier and others harder.
Monasul is as Mandros says he is, killable only by this one sword. Monasul no longer drops the Great Axe. He has a sweet Mage drop now. I know that all you selfish mages hate me now because you can't use the mage drop until you do ALL of the quest. I added one area that nobody has ever found, because you all think BadLands was written in Stone (ha ha) and will never change so you don't really adventure.
I do agree that it is a 'blind' quest with no NPC's or any real clues. That is true for ALL the quests in BadLands. The Ettercap Gland to get a Snowpipe and the Hell Beast eye to get a Mystic Mirror. These are just a few of the many mini-quests available.
Each Boss is a quest in it's self. You want the drop, the portal into the Outpost, or the bragging rights. That is a mini-quest.
Is there an advantage to building a pure single class vs a multi-class? That would make for a great topic all by it's self. And, YES, I think pure does have it's real advantages.
I've said it before, NWN did not do DND any favors. A Sorcerer that can save up skills, take one level in Rogue and one level in Paladin, and play as if she had 40 levels in all 3 classes? That's NOT the DND that I know and love.
That is however, why I tightened up the Mandros' Quest and hammered down on UMD and some other stuff.
I watched (in DM mode) a single person with two computers try to do the Madros' Quest alone. He kept switching toons to get past each obstacle. Pure Paladins DON'T travel with EVIL. They hunt down and kill ALL evil without question. I made it impossible for any one person, player, or toon to do alone. (Yes, his two main toons were a pally and an evil mage. When I confronted him about the alignment he gave me some shit about it being 'good role-play' to do it this way.)
As far as clues for the Mandro's Quest go, I did add some. But, because nobody has ever actually tried to do it 'old school' style, you never found the clues, you never found all the drops, and, you never did ALL of the quest in it's entirety.
Yes, it' is a long, long quest. The last time I did it, I was in party with the other DM's. Even knowing all the answers, having the right builds and the 'old school' party, it took us two or three hours to complete.
Another problem with BadLands and the Paladin Class is that it's an UBER server. That is, we all hit the +12 cap on gear, then our special class feats, skills, and spells stop working. The Barbarian is the perfect example here. Until I built the 'UBER Barbarian' system, nobody ever built for Barbarian. Now, along with Deep Orc, every 3'rd toon is a very playable Barbarian.
The Paladin has a similar problem that the Barbarian did. Once you hit level 21 and max out your gear, your self buffs stop working. A Paladin can't boost their Charisma to gain an 'edge'.
Sometimes I'm temped to just make everybody UBER at level 41. It's an interesting thought, not without it's new problems. Allow the character to choose 2 or 3 attributes at level 41 to max out in, like the Barbarian does with strength and con.
It would be easier to just remove all attribute from all gear and just give everybody 12's straight across. Then every build would be 'equalized' and have access to his/her normal things again.
Bull's Strength. Dwarven Defenders stance. Harper Scout might be a usable class again. PDK (Purple Dragon Knight) would be usable. Paladin's could use their charisma buffs again. And the 12's being on your person don't effect the +20 cap to the AB that some Clerics hit. A Cleric might become the new 'overpowered' build.
One other thing I've been meaning to do to the Mandros' Quest and haven't, is to relax the 'pure' Paladin. I see no reason why a Pally can't multi-class with COT or WM. But, Leaf set it up with 'certain' things and I did not change 'certain' things.
Extomorf said: "As for the quest me and a mate are in process of lvling a pure pali and rogue so we can have a go at the quest because, it's something different to do and also my mate wants the great axe from monasul."
I hate to break it to you, but that axe isnt on Monasul anymore, and has no part of that quest. It's on Bruce, you just have to kill him and get it. Good luck :)
Also, in regards to the Mandros Quest, I think the hardest part of the quest BY FAR is the "Pure" aspect of the classes. If the Alignment and "pure class" restrictions were lifted there would be ALOT more people trying to do the quest. But like someone said previously, the way the quest stands now not only do you have to create a toon specifically to do the quest, but you have to get 3 of your buddies to do the same. That's just not practical. It's hard enough to get the right amount of people on the server at the same time to do the quest without getting people to coordinate what classes they're leveling. And then there's the argument about how effective those "pure" toons will be after they to the quest and get the drop. I remember pre-wipe when some of the DM's were more liberal with "re-levels" it was EXTREMELY common for a person to do the quest for the Holy Avenger with the expressed intention of getting a re-level done to convert the "pure Paladin" into a 29 Paladin /1 Sorcerer /RDD 10 build. The concept of keeping the sword on a "pure paladin" was laughable. It was considered a waste of a good weapon.
What Bruce has the axe now, well i'm almost annoyed, glad i only got to lvl 8 because i'd be fully annoyed if i'd of gotten to lvl 40 and completed the quest to find out he didn't have the axe.
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