Hey Guys,
I've been working on the mod, trying to get the next update ready. I'm working off the list of things I need or want to do.
One of the things I'm working on is the UBER Barbarian. I have changed the placeholders that the UBER Items use. It did (currently) use +5 AC, +5 AC, Light, and Weight Reduction to hold the place of the +4 Str and +4 Con. I've replaced that with skills, +20 Craft Armor and +20 Craft Weapon. It is going to work out much better. You will be able to use boots now and your AC won't compromised. This change allows for +6 AC to be added in Castle Sheelo and the Helms of Skill that Gooble sells can be converted to UBER Items.
And yes, you will be able to convert your old UBER Items in for the new UBER Items.
I have also added Dwarven Defender to the UBER list as UBER Defender. The UBER Defender get the same STR and CON treatment as the UBER Barbarian does except it's ten Defender levels required.
Also, I have added Paladin on as UBER Paladin. The UBER Paladin will use STRENGTH and CHARISMA, using the same rules as the other UBER Classes. Ten Paladin levels required.
Now I'm looking for your advice and suggestions. What other classes "suffer" because they hit the +12 cap. The Barbarian, Defender and Paladin rely heavily on their rightful ability to boost certain attributes. This UBER Class System has proven very well at making the Barbarian a fun and useful class at BadLands RPG.
I won't consider any spellcaster class in this, they are already overly powerful by comparison. The UBER Barbarian/Cleric mix is working well. The UBER Paladin mix and UBER Defender mix will be able to prove them self's soon.
So, a wee bit of feedback will go a long way here.
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24 comments:
Excellent / More fun Uber Classes :)
I have a suggestion, and i will try to explain why i am putting it forward, although it may not be exactly what you are looking for Q.
The Higher levels of Weapon Master are not generally useful, most players are content with 5 or 7 levels of WM on their toons. Also WM can be mixed with say Rogue or Monk or Cleric etc, and not be just confined to the Mellee builds like Fighter.
So a new "Uber Class" of WM at 10 levels of Weapon Master might be an interesting mix / addition to the pot, especially if it allowed +6 AC from Castle Sheelo like the Uber Barbarian ??
I can think of a few builds that could be "Remade" to use 10 WM levels instead of 7 or 5.
All the best .......Blade :)
Maybe Dex & Str could be the UBER Abilities for an UBER WM ?
I'm pleased to hear that you doing an uber dwarven defender as it does suffer from the cap. but i'm not sure i know how the paladin suffers i admit i've rarely played as paladin so my knowledge on them is limited.
Only other thing i would say that suffers abit is the monk in way of the elemental damage that you can put on the gauntlets as it doesn't go up to the full 1d20 damage. but you have said your planning to do an epic monk shop at somepoint. other than that i don't think any other classes suffer from the +12 cap or any other restrictions.
Blade said...
"So a new "Uber Class" of WM at 10 levels of Weapon Master might be an interesting mix / addition to the pot, especially if it allowed +6 AC from Castle Sheelo like the Uber Barbarian ??"
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I'll need to double check the shop requirements at Castle Sheelo, but, I'm pretty sure Weapon Master is already on the list.
What you need is:
Str 30 (natural 30, not adjust 30)
Medium or Heavy Armor with AC +5
Ten levels in any true melee class.
If you're not wearing the armor +5, you cant put AC +6 on your helm and shield. The helm and shield will need AC +5 already. He won't work with anything that does not already have AC +5.
This is a level 22 shop. In my experience, the order of upgrading your helm should be this: UD, Castle Sheelo, Helm's Hold.
Helm's Hold is also a level 22 shop. But if you max out there, you won't have room for more AC.
extomorf said...
"Only other thing i would say that suffers abit is the monk in way of the elemental damage that you can put on the gauntlets as it doesn't go up to the full 1d20 damage. but you have said your planning to do an epic monk shop at somepoint. other than that i don't think any other classes suffer from the +12 cap or any other restrictions."
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Yes, I will be adding (maybe I already did and forgot) a level 23 Monk shop. I have imported a few pair of "max" monk gauntlets that self and a few select players have tested. They are real sweet. Almost a bit too much, but they do follow the same elemental rules as all other weapons.
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extomorf said...
"I'm pleased to hear that you doing an uber dwarven defender as it does suffer from the cap. but i'm not sure i know how the paladin suffers i admit i've rarely played as paladin so my knowledge on them is limited."
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The Paladin uses his charisma bonus for Divine Shield and Divine Might (and probably a few other things). The Paladin gets a few spells to boost his charisma, the best being Aura of Glory. I forget the numbers, but the total Cha boost can be around +8.
- The CHA bonus is used for duration and boost size. If I remember correctly, it's one round per cha bonus and one point per cha bonus. The Paladin levels probably get used as well.
- Divine Shield uses Cha bonus for AC boost. 1 cha bonus = +1 AC for 1 round.
- Divine Might uses Cha bonus for Positive Damage on your weapon. 1 cha bonus = 1 point positive damage for 1 round.
- Smite uses the Cha bonus to boost AB for one hit (although your stats sheet won't reflect it). To build an effective Smiter you need big charisma and big strength. (I remember being in DM mode and seeing a Paladin Smiter hurt Betty for 1000 HP on one hit. The guy got off 3 or 4 smites in a row and she was Slaad Salad)
- Paladin also uses Cha bonus for Turn Undead, but I don't think that will effect anything.
The Paladin is a hard class to build for and play on BadLands RPG. The Paladin really needs to use all of his/her attributes, not just two or three. By needing to raise all of your stats, you get a crappy toon that really sucks.
Lets explore the Pally a bit:
- The traditional Paladin uses Full Plate armor and a big-ass Great Sword, or a Longsword and Shield. This means low AC.
- With low strength, you have low AB (unless you build a dexer) and low damage.
- Although dexterity is not used directly, (by the class) low dex means low reflex saves and low initiative.
- Constitution is a no-brainer. Low con equals being dead real fast and a low Fortitude Save.
- Intelligence covers skill points mostly. But, super low Int will get you stuck at obstacles as you walk. Even medium int can negotiate around the same obstacles.
- Wisdom: The Paladin needs at least 16 wisdom to get the full list of spells. Wisdom also effects your Will Save.
- Charisma has already been discuss in regards to the Paladin. Charisma directly effects the Paladins AC and damage.
A Paladin that can boost his/her str and cha might be "playable" again, just like the Uber Barbarian has proven to be playable once again.
I don't know how you could make this an UBER class and I don't know what you would do but shifters have a lot of problems on Badlands RPG they are cool but not very strong your ability bonuses don't work when your shifted and if you have a higher base STR than the shifted form it brings your STR down. I just think badlands could be more shifter friendly.
Rome said...
"I don't know how you could make this an UBER class and I don't know what you would do but shifters have a lot of problems on Badlands RPG they are cool but not very strong your ability bonuses don't work when your shifted and if you have a higher base STR than the shifted form it brings your STR down. I just think badlands could be more shifter friendly."
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Rome, your not the first to complain about Shifters. There is a reason why nobody builds for the Shifter, and you are finding the reasons.
When you "shift", you stop becoming what you once were and become something different. This means you take on the abilities, both good and bad of the new form. If you have built your Druid/Shifter well, you can use some special monster abilities as well.
The Shifter needs a lot of wisdom to work properly and use the monster abilities. This high wisdom takes away from other things that can seem more important. This is why you loose some of the magic from your gear, because that monster does not use it. Sometimes you will be given a new sword that you can't let go of and can't examine. Even as a DM, I can't take it away from you.
The Shifter and the monsters that he transforms into, were designed for non-uber servers. That means they are weak in comparison to the Uberness of BadLands.
Adding the Shifter to the Uber Class System is not the solution.
The Shifter scripting can be changed, or at least parts of it. But it is quite complex. I'm not so sure I want to mess with it.
But, there have been a few players that have built successful Druid/Shifters. It might be something you really need to study for a long time before you can get it right. I built a few and gave up, it just seemed pointless to me.
I think some reading on the shifter specs on wikipedia would help Rome a bit (I doubt that due to his dark and famous past.. oh well):
Item merge
* Weapon is the primary weapon slot.
* Items are both ring slots, amulet slot, cloak slot, boots slot, and belt slot.
* Armor is the armor slot, shield slot (shield only, offhand weapons do not merge), and helmet slot.
* The gloves or bracers slot and the ammunition slots never merge.
* Rules of thumb:
o Has a weapon? Merges all.
o Unarmed, stands on two legs? Merges items & armor.
o Unarmed, four or more legs? Merges armor only.
o Exceptions to the rule are epic manticore, spectre, death slaad lord, stone golem, and demonflesh golem.
* Because only the properties of the items are taken, and the item is "removed" and unavailable in the shifted form, any penalties from armor, such as penalties on skills, do not apply when shifted. This also means that a druid/shifter/monk who had been wearing armor or using a shield prior to shifting will have their special abilities reinstated because they will no longer be wearing armor or using a shield.
* All AC bonuses become deflection bonuses, and only the highest applies.
* If there are multiple bonuses to an ability score, only the highest applies. For example, if the shifter was wearing elven boots (+2 dexterity), a belt of agility +2 (+2 dexterity), and bracers of agility +3 (+3 dexterity), the final dexterity bonus on the shifted form is +2: the elven boots and belt of agility do not stack, and the bracers in the glove slot do not merge at all.
* It is possible to save a game while in shifted form, but on reloading, any item merges are not applied (and some items that cannot be used while shifted are removed from the quickbar). To reinstate them, re-shift.
What happens here is not some server thing that was preventing the class (like dwarven defender and barbarian) to reach their full potential. Which is, getting stat boosts even with +12 magical upgrades.
Shifters were never tweaked so their thing could work. Like the useless Dragon Shape. It may have a decent AC and average AB, but since cloaks don't merge, you'll always be a slow-ass dragon who gets jammed on doors and caves. Therefore they are a waste of time for most of players.
Which explains why Leaf made a Shape Suit with haste on it usable only by Druid/Shifter.
Not realizing all this "merge" all I saw was a "mage exploit" and removed the haste. Terry was complaining about this some time ago. At his request, I did restore the haste, but it probably won't show up until the next mod update.
One of the many problems I see with being "shifted" is the weapon focus. Different forms use different weapons, meaning unless you take Epic Weapon Focus in a lot of weapons, you will be down 3 AB. For those shapes that seem to go "unarmed", they are really using "creature weapons" in their "creature weapon slot" and the weapon signs on as a "creature weapon" not as "unarmed". A player does not have the ability to choose weapon focus in "creature weapon", this is reserved for monsters only.
How about if you put great magic fang on it and it only worked in shifted form.
extomorf said...
"How about if you put great magic fang on it and it only worked in shifted form."
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I dont know if this is what he was thinking exactly but is there some way you could pay and upgrade and invisible creature skin that is only activated when shifted for the extra abilities/damage. Damage is another problem if you are shifted as a bear and fighting vampires you cant hit them because there is no elemental damage. Interestingly however you can hit them if you have stone skin on.
I would also like to ask (and i think i know the answer) is it possible make a paladin/dwarven defender and make both UBER?
Rome said...
"extomorf said...
"How about if you put great magic fang on it and it only worked in shifted form."
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I dont know if this is what he was thinking exactly but is there some way you could pay and upgrade and invisible creature skin that is only activated when shifted for the extra abilities/damage. Damage is another problem if you are shifted as a bear and fighting vampires you cant hit them because there is no elemental damage. Interestingly however you can hit them if you have stone skin on.
I would also like to ask (and i think i know the answer) is it possible make a paladin/dwarven defender and make both UBER?"
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Magic Fang can only be cast on pets, and once you have shifted you loose access to Druid spells until back in Druid form.
You will only be able to be one type of Uber Class. If you qualify for two, then you need to make a choice.
Invisible Creature Skin can not be upgraded in the shops. I spent a lot of time trying to use it as an Invisible Cloak, only to find out that it can't be used that way. It is not a "normal" player item and it can't be assigned a "gold value". Because it has no gold value, it can't be bought, sold, or tested for Item Level.
As for the bear/vampire/man/pig thing, I think that's just part of the learning curve you need to go through in order to find out what works, why, how and when.
I think I can safely say that the Druid/Shifter is not a noob build.
You might wanna consider making an UBER Druid. Druids are basically dead on BadlandsRPG due to the high saves that people can get that make the Druid spells worthless. However, Druids have access to a potentially powerful spell called "Owl's Insight" could ressurrect the class if the +12 Wisdom cap was removed.
Description: The target gains an enhancement bonus to wisdom equal to half the caster's level.
If you made the Druid UBER and gave it the ability to get more Wisdom it would increase the DC of some of the potentially powerful "Druid Only" spells that are currently laughable because of the high saves.
Deurack said...
"You might wanna consider making an UBER Druid."
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I checked into Owl's Insight. A level 24 Druid would hit the +12 cap. A Druid/Shifter/Monk would also gain a nice AC boost.
The Druid gets Bull's Strength and Owl's Insight only. Those are his only two attribute boosters. I had been ignoring the "common" attrib boosters because their loss effects everybody equally. They are effective while you're low-level and have inexpensive gear, but in the high levels, everybody is maxed out and for the most part, equalized.
An Uber Shifter with raised Strength/Wisdom cap would seem fair. Owl's Insight is a fifth level Druid spell and you would need 9 Druid levels to get Owl's Insight. This would only get you +4 Wisdom for 4 hours (four game hours is four real-time minutes). Kind of pointless to stop at Druid 9.
I'll set the Uber Shifter so you need ten Druid levels to start. This will work with your Str and Wis following the Uber Barbarian guidelines.
I was looking at the bioware scripts some and saw a note that should be passed on:
"Any Shifter attempting to shape shift that has less than ten Shifter levels will be penalized. A REAL Shifter has ten or more Shifter levels."
On that note, let me reinforce that only Druids can take the Prestige class Shifter. Shifter will get other types of forms that a Druid can't get. No matter how you do it, you can't get all the shapes. (hmm, maybe after 40 you can get the rest)
Ok i finally have made an UBER Dwarven Defender and an UBER Paladin :)
I presume that the UBER Barbarian would play much the same as it did before ?
My Paladin has certainly benefited from the +24 CHA and compensates from the drop in AC on his gear by using Divine Shield (now his AC becomes higher than it was before with Divine Shield) Also he will have similar benefits to Divine Might :)
My Dwarven Defender has his +12 STR & +12 CON frozen so that he can now Buff on top to further raise these. However, not every Dwarven Defender will welcome the drop in AC from regular gear. In fact it might be fair to have +5 AC on the Boots for all of these Classes, even if it meant a higher (maybe lvl 24) item !? :)
All the Best .......Blade :)
If you're experiencing a drop in AC, then I think I need to fix something.
The UBER Barbarian should play exactly as he did before, but without the limitations of gear choices.
I had forgot about those changes. I need to play-test and see if it's finished or bugged or what.
To clarify, I used to use Belt Bracers Helmet on the old UBER Barbarian. I haven't tried the new UBER Barbarian. I use Belt Bracers Boots on the UBER Dw Def and UBER Paladin leaving Helmet and Armour and Shield [+8 Dev Shield too ]free to upgrade to +6 {obviously Amulet & 2 Rings are needed for your saving throws and Cloak for Haste}.
So what is happening is that when i take the +5 AC off my Boots to make them either STR+4 CON+4/CHA+4 then the resulting UBER Class no longer has that AC. Normally i wouldn't have +5 AC on Belt or Bracers, although Belt can be used on a Class that doesn't have +5 AC on Helmet (because using a Helm from Shop for example. I have +5 AC on Armour / Shield / Amulet / Helm / {and usually Boots}. Another place to put +5 AC is on Cloak / but this won't stack with what i have as a "replacement " for the Boots AC.
Somebody made a great post explaining the different types of AC like Dodge AC / Shield AC etc/ Sorry i have lost track of this information.
In closing, it seems to me that the way to address this might be to make the Boots a Higher lvl crafted item so that they can remain as they are but with an extra +5 AC on top :)
All the Best .........Blade :)
The post on AC types came from "terry17". This is a link to that post 'I CLAIM NO CREDIT FOR THIS, THIS CAME FROM TERRY17' (that's the name of the post, ha ha)
As I recall, what I wanted to accomplish, and what I tested, was this:
I bought three new items (blank) and added only:
* STR +4 and CON +4 (Barbarian)
* STR +4 and CON +4 (Defender)
* STR +$ and CHA +4 (Paladin)
to each item for a total of +12 and +12.
Then I told the NPC to make me an UBER Character.
He logged me out and modified my person and my three items.
He took the attributes off the items and put them on my person.
He replaced the item properties (str, con, cha) with skills (craft item, craft weapon).
After I was logged back in, I could upgrade my gear in the normal fashion. I did not have access to my two UBER properties, but I could add all the expected properties in all the expected amounts.
If you can't add +5 AC to you're items in the normal fashion, then there is a bug I need to solve for.
I was also able to convert an older UBER Barbarian to the new style of UBER Barbarian.
I'm working on a new big additional system to add in. It's nearly ready for beta testing. I won't publish any teaser here, but, I am doing the impossible! Once that is ready for beta testing, I will check into the UBER System. It should only be another day or two, at which time I will start a new thread with pictures and details.
With Reference to Terry's Post {tyQ}, it is clear that if you use Belt / Bracers / Helmet [sacrificing +6 lvl 22 Helmet] you can have +5 AC Deflection on your Cloak with your Haste and +5 AC Dodge on your Boots. So this way is better than what i did if AC is more important to you than Ability Points.
All the Best ........Blade :)
Bracers for AC are fine, with the exception that there are some quest armors with more than +5 AC.
My favorite is the Krenshar Cloth with +6 AC. If your character has 16 dex (natural dex), you can get the same AC with cloth as you would with full plate. (before adding any AC)
Any build that does not use spells, or does not add extra spell slots to the cape and helm, can easily max out all 6 attributes to +12 and still have room for more (not much). When building items, keep adding stuff until it goes past the limit, then remove one property until the item can be built. You can get much more stuff this way and still be legal.
Have you taken your UBER char to the level 22 helm shop and tried to add extra stuff? It should work.
Don't forget about the +6 AC shop in Castle Sheelo. This is for strength based melee builds. Barbarian, Defender and Paladin are all 'melee' classes. You will need to be wearing medium or heavy armor with +5 AC on it. You will need a wad of natural strength. You will need 10 levels in any single melee class.
This shop has it's limits. It can only work with +5 and +6 AC. Adding +6 AC to an item will usually put into the level 22 range, making it unable to be modified in UD later.
You should build your items in UD, then go to Castle Sheelo for +6 AC. And finally go to Helms Hold to add more stuff to your helm.
If, if I got everything adjusted correctly, the UBER toon should be able to do this also, without the restrictions that we used to have.
I've made these changes to allow the UBER char the freedoms of item building that other builds get.
OK. I logged on with my Barbarian, the one that was waiting for this update and made him an UBER Barbarian. This guy has 20 Barbarian levels and a few RDD levels (yes, one bard level. I don't cheat!) for a total of 25 levels.
I bought all new gear including a shield, even though I use a Great Axe and don't normally use a shield. I put +4 Str and +4 Con on my shield, boots and helm. That's it, nothing else. I told the big lug I was ready to be UBER bad and he did just that.
The Str +4 and Con +4 on each item was changed to Crafting Skills +20 (craft weapon and craft armor). I was logged out and the +12 Str / Con was written to my person.
After I was logged back in (automaticaly) I told the fat-headed Orc that I didn't want to use my UBER Shield and he gave me a list of the items I was wearing that I could transfer the Uberness to. He even gave me the option of using a new shield!
I chose my bracers just because. Now my shield was blank again and my bracers had Craft Armor +20 and Craft Weapon +20.
Now it was time to upgrade ALL my gear. I put AC +5 on my boots, amulet, helm and bracers. I put all saves +5 on both rings and amulet.
Since I'm not a spell caster, I did not buy spell slots, instead I bought Wisdom +5 and Int +5 for my cape along with haste.
The belt got Wis +5 and Int +5.
I put Cha +3 on each ring.
I put Dex +3 on my helm, boots, armor and bracers.
My armor absorbed the missing Int +2 and Wis +2.
I also put Regen +1 on my helm and armor.
When I had all the important stuff maxed out, I added as much Cha to each item as I could. I think I got a total of +5 Cha one item at a time.
This was all done at Underdark. My next stop was Castle Sheelo. Since I am on the list of Beta Testers, and I was testing, I was able to just pop-over. Normally it's a long walk with lots of angry monsters slowing down the journey.
Once inside the castle, I talked to Trankus Liverspot about +6 AC. He was happy to take my gold and put AC +6 on my heavy armor and my helm. He even was able to add some more elemental to my Great Axe.
Now I popped-over to Helm's Hold and talked to Gooble Helms. I bought a Helm of Discipline +5 and popped back to UD to have it converted into my Helm of Uberness. This ment I had to go back to see Trankus for AC +6 again and finally back Gooble.
Gooble Helms put Dex +3 and Cha +3 on my helm along with Regen +1. That may not seem like much, but lets look at my helm this way, it has AC +6, Regen +1, Str +4, Con +4, Dex +3, Cha +3, and, Discipline skill +5. And that's not even a boss drop!
My last 'pop' was to Castlevania to talk to Derek Tebes. Derek is the new Melee Weapons Crafter. He is a level 24 blacksmith with a high understanding of what makes a Great Axe truly Great. Derek was able to finish building my Great Axe as per the standard BadLands RPG rules. Fire 1d12, Devine 1d12, Sonic 1d12, Keen, and Enhancement +5.
Every thing worked smoothly and as I was expecting it to work.
Without using any boss drops, I was able to buy:
AC +20 (25 if I use a shield).
Regen +2 (+3 if I use a shield).
Saves +15 to fort, reflex and will.
Str +12
Con +12
Dex +12
Int +12
Wis +12
Cha +11
And I can now use my rage for Str +6 and Con +6. In a few more levels I can take Mighty Rage for +8 to Str and Con. If I was to be pure Barbarian, I could get Uber Rage +12 once I have all three of the Epic Barbarian feats, Thundering Rage, Terrifying Rage and Mighty Rage and 35 levels of Barbarian.
The only thing I noticed that I don't like is that at the time of conversion to Uberness, my Barbarian becomes slowed down until a server reset. I am addressing that issue and it will be fixed soon.
I did not do an official test with a Paladin or Defender yet. I did those while I was building the system and it all went as smooth then as my Barbarian test did just now.
Qwildurn,
server host,
BadLands RPG
I am happy to report that since the latest update UBER Paladin and UBER DwarvenDefender appear to be working fine, including changing around the 3 UBER items.
In my experience the 3 UBER items were unable to be further upgraded as it reported that they were already Level 21 items.
I have made my Helm +6 lvl 22, and my Full Plate and my Tower Shield on my Paladin. My Dwarven Defender wanted his Boots for +5 AC so he used his Helm as an UBER item. He is only 21 so needs to get further +6 lvl 22 Armour and Tower Shield in due course.
I will try again to add more Attributes to my 3 UBER Items, this may have been changed since this latest update, as your UBER Barbarian indicates with all his Attributes you have recorded.
Finally, I have just started a Monk 20 / Druid 10 / Shifter 10 which can also join the UBER club now. I will report on it in the future under the Druid Thread above.
All the Best ........Blade :)
I have maxed out all attibutes bar one which is +11 same as Q's UBER Barbarian on my UBER Paladin. My UBER Dwarven Defender is able to add to his 3 UBER Items (Which start as lvl 16 items) and enhance them to lvl 21/22 items.
My UBER Dwarven Defender is still quite a low level (21) and i am playing him on in order to Max out his gear etc.
Both of these are my own Toons not Beta Testers :)
All the Best ......Blade :)
Awesomeness :)
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